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/chat/ - When people are children, they can't stand or...
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95931 No. 95931 watch
When people are children, they can't stand or understand the adult world, yet they want to be a part of it. They're indignant about being controlled by our parents, and insist that when they are adults, they will do things "right" and treat children differently. This idea that they are right and "the system" is wrong carries into and is intensified to edgy extents by adolescence.

But somewhere along the line, after they pass the age of legal adulthood, they start to settle down. They tend to be less fearful of "the system"--after all, the system keeps them alive, so they have to be a part of it. Their parents were right all along to say "you'll understand when you'll older"; nothing brings understanding of adulthood like experiencing it firsthand.

And people forget the beliefs and ideals they clung to when in their youth. They may remember or have forgotten the childhood vows they made to never succumb and conform to the adult world, but either way, they'll conform, and become what they once hated.

Why does this happen? Why does every generation go through the cycle of edgy to prudish? Why are childhood and adulthood like night and day?
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No. 95933
>>95931
I think it's a combination of things.

Sometimes you just decide to accept the inevitable with certain things. Take for instance capitalism - when we're in the teens we often tend to hate that part of the system in parituclar (for good reasons like the greed that it can encourage) and want nothing to do with furthering it.

But as we enter the adult world, we realise that it's simply - to put it the parental way - "how the world works son, get used to it", because everyone needs to be able to measure what they make or do for other people in order to judge how much of it to trade for what others make or do for them. (Otherwise most likely everyone would just sit back with a beer looking at each other and wondering who will volunteer to do whatever needs to be done - that is assuming someone volunteered to brew the beer and make the chair). You see this issue when people live together, a lot. Sometimes people put their own currency system in place in households, even if it's something like beers or turns in the comfy chair.

Part of it is a numbers thing. Even if we could find a better system than the one that's been running the world for thousands of years, we then have to convince 7 billion other people to follow suit (though obviously the third world part of the billions would require less convincing) and it just can't happen in a lifetime without the collapse of the global economy and society as it is now (i.e. WW3 or such)

So, we join the capitalist society like everyone else and tone down our ideals to fit reality. OR we become an idealist of course, and genuinely not participate, hunt our own food or accept it from volunteers, sleep in the woods etc. Generally the rest of society will try to enforce that not to happen, though. Or you get someone like the Free Software champion Richard Stallman, who does actually do great things for the world, but who a lot of people think is an extremist nutter, and many will prefer to just fit in.

Then you have general outlook. The pattern tends to be to start off with a friendly, cheerful optimism in youth, then people get worn down by the world's negative side and become more cynical. Sometimes much later in life they pull through it all and actually come full cirle and become that cheerful optimistic granny.

For me, whilst adulthood applies just like any other (I have a job, I accept that we live in a capitalist world - and wonder how something nice like MLP could even be created without one - and I know that many aspects of the world are quite frankly, shit) - but I think I mostly avoid falling too deep into the trap of being who I don't want to be. I see the cheerful positive children, and the cheerful positive grannies, and they always seem to be right. And I'm sure not coincidentally, they represent the sections of life where we aren't competing with one another so much. So I don't know, I just try to "stay young". A lot of people do this, I think, it's just that as a human failing we often tend to notice negatives more, e.g. people who've completely turned on their ideals.

I think that's the most I've typed on here for a year combined, hah.
No. 95934
I realise it wasn't particularly a post about capitalism and whether it's good or evil, I use that as an example as it's a fairly common one that we tend to mull over (and end up having to accept) between youth and adulthood.
No. 95936
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95936
>>95931
Hi, Anonpony! These are deep questions, I think. Perhaps you could tell us more about what you mean by "the system?" How do you see adults treating children badly? What does right and wrong mean to you?
No. 95945
>>95933
I think you summed it up pretty well, accepting the inevitable.

>>95936
By "the system", I mean the money-driven society we live in. As for adults treating children badly, the generational gap just seems like it's a problem that will never go away.

Every child proclaims that when they have kids, they'll be "fair" parents and never end arguments with "because I'm the parent" and always understand their kids' point of view, because they won't forget what it was like to be a kid and have no say in what happens to them. But in the end, most people tend to be exactly like their parents were, "unfair" methods and all. Somewhere along the line, they start to understand their parents' point of view, and stop understanding their children's (and own childhood self's) point of view.

"Right" means the best way for things to happen; a good society. "Wrong", obviously, is the opposite of that. And both of those things are bullshit, because the things that you see as "right" and "wrong" change as you get older. If you can't even agree with yourself, who can you agree with?
No. 95946
>>95945
I don't know if it's necessarily "not agreeing with yourself", more a combination of learning and acceptance kind of making it that you're a different, more experienced person.

Acceptance I've already textwalled

Learning because when you're a kid you think, let's say, eating chocolate for all your meals would be a fantastic idea, and that your parents are monsters making you eat those horrible veggies. Or that those silly parents really don't need to be paying for a new roof, because the money would be far better spent on a Playstation 4. Sometimes the more experienced party has to put their foot down and say that they know better - because, well, they do!

You do learn some things over time with experience, and therefore quite rightly I think, that's why kids are not actually our equals and not, let's say, running for parliament (or presidency, whatever applies to your country).

I do however think it's good parenting to listen to the kid's point of view, understand and sympathise (from as you say, when you were in their position and wanted them to do that for you) and try and explain why you're right, rather than just putting your foot down with no explanation other than "I'm the parent, do as your told".

If parents can at least explain "you need a balance of some special types of food called protein, carbohydrate and fat and we've learned that too much chocolate - which is mostly fat - can be quite bad for you", or "I'm sorry I know you'd love a PS4 but if we don't fix the roof soon it'll be raining inside" then I think that goes a long way. But then if the kid persists, well then of course it's the parent's responsibility to exert their authority.

On the more general "right and wrong" stuff, well personally I'm not sure a money-driven society is wrong for the reasons I mentioned. Again, in part, it's learning why it's there (which takes time) and thinking about what other options would even work (which takes more time). I think there's nothing much wrong with the system - it's those who abuse it with greed. And so perhaps as you grow older your ideals shift from "I hate money" to "I need to make sure I don't get greedy, and encourage those around me to do the same". You're still the good person the kid wanted to be.
No. 95949
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95949
>>95945
>I mean the money-driven society we live in.
I see. Money is just a place holder for value, so I suppose the system is just the world where people in power get what they want.

>the generational gap just seems like it's a problem that will never go away.
Well, I think there are two elements at play. During adolescence, young people gain greater capacity to question what they would have previously taken for granted. Second, we live in a changing society, so the world that parents inhabited when they were adolescents is not that same as the world that current adolescents inhabit. Change can happen very quickly. In more traditional cultures where each generation is very similar, this friction is minimized.

>never end arguments with "because I'm the parent" and always understand their kids' point of view,

What was the argument about?
No. 95956
>>95946
>I do however think it's good parenting to listen to the kid's point of view, understand and sympathise (from as you say, when you were in their position and wanted them to do that for you) and try and explain why you're right, rather than just putting your foot down with no explanation other than "I'm the parent, do as your told".
The problem is, most parents don't seem to do that, at least not all the time. My parents tried to sometimes, but for the most part, it usually came down to "because I'm the parent", and it seems like a pretty universal thing from what I've seen of other families. A lot of people just don't bother because they assume their kids wouldn't understand or care anyway.

Why does everybody think kids are dumber than they really are? And why do they think that it's necessary or beneficial to withhold so much information from them? Kids can't know what sex is or what curse words are, because these things are "adult"?

>Again, in part, it's learning why it's there (which takes time) and thinking about what other options would even work (which takes more time)
>there's nothing much wrong with the system - it's those who abuse it with greed
Isn't the very fact that it's as abusable as it is something very wrong with the system, though? Is no one else bothered enough by things like this:
>>95933
>OR we become an idealist of course, and genuinely not participate, hunt our own food or accept it from volunteers, sleep in the woods etc
>Generally the rest of society will try to enforce that not to happen, though
to want to change them? Why does being born into a society make one obligated to be a part of it and contribute to it? At the very least, you should be able to opt out of the system if you want to. But you can't do that then, because that makes you dirty non-taxpaying unproductive NEET scum in pretty much every country.

Everybody has to dress right and fit in and work and follow social norms. There's no say in the matter. You're born, you go to school, you get a job, you mind your damn manners. If you're a guy, you work out, cut your hair and shave your beard. If you're a girl, you wear makeup, shave your legs, and starve yourself to maintain a thin figure. Otherwise, you're ostracized. And god forbid you decide it's warm out and you don't need to wear clothes, because we've decided we have to be the only species that is offended at the sight of our own naked bodies.

Does all of this really make sense to most people? Or do most people agree that it's bullshit but swallow it anyway, either because they assume no one else agrees with them or because they don't know what to do about it?

I feel like if anyone were put in the "original position" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Original_position) and examined our society and its functioning and nuances, they'd think a lot of it was bullshit.

>>95949
I suppose if you want to really get into specifics, "the system" is fact that there are people in power.

>we live in a changing society, so the world that parents inhabited when they were adolescents is not that same as the world that current adolescents inhabit
So the generation gap is a byproduct of the world becoming less shitty and adults being accustomed to more shit than their children are?

>What was the argument about?
Hell if I remember, I haven't even seen my parents in two months. A lot of them were about the internet, some were about video games, some were about profanity, and near the end of high school, about pot.
No. 95957
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95957
>>95956
>I suppose if you want to really get into specifics, "the system" is fact that there are people in power.
Do you see power as bad?

>So the generation gap is a byproduct of the world becoming less shitty and adults being accustomed to more shit than their children are?

Somewhat I think it's a product of change. I think people and populations tend toward growth when resources are avaliable, and tend toward decline when resources are scarce, so whether things are more or less bad depend on resource supply, I guess. But certainly technology has promoted a lot of changes as well, for better or worse...

I quick quote from "Adolescence" by Steinberg, P. 106.

"The high leel of discontinuity found in comtemporary America is not characteristic of adolescence in tradidional societies. Consider the socialization of young people in Samoa, described in detail by the late antropologist Margaret Mead in her classic book Coming of Age in Samoa (1928/1978). From early childhood on, Samoan youngsters are involved in work tasts that have a meaningful connection to the work they will perform as adults. They participate in the care of younger children, in the planting and harvesting of crops, and in the gathering and prepartion of food. Their entrance into adult work roles is gradual and continuous, with work tasts being graded to their skills and intelligence."

I guess here the book is talking about the continuiuty of adolescent development, but I'd assert that discontinuity and uncertainty about adult roles can lead to friction between adolescents and parents.

>Hell if I remember,

Ah, I guessed wrong about the cause of you bringing up this subject then.
No. 95958
>>95957
The book also said most conflict are conflicts over domains of authoirty. For example, a teen may feel her room is her domain and it can be messy if she wants, a parent may feel the room is their domain and they can tell the teen to clean it. This kind of conflict has to do with the domain of personal choice, and I suppose, it has less to do with the continuiuty of development or adult expectations.
No. 95960
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95960
>>95957
>Do you see power as bad?
Inherently so. I'm not fond of people controlling other people.

>Ah, I guessed wrong about the cause of you bringing up this subject then.
I bring this subject up because I just finished my first year of college, I'm starting to understand adulthood more, and I'm not sure how to feel about it.
No. 95961
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95961
>>95960
>Inherently so. I'm not fond of people controlling other people.
When you write to people on this site, are you not using your power to communicate with others? It's not much power, true, but it's still the capacity for influence.

>I just finished my first year of college,
Congradulations, sweetie!

>I'm starting to understand adulthood more, and I'm not sure how to feel about it.
What have you learned about adulthood?
No. 95964
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95964
>>95961
>When you write to people on this site, are you not using your power to communicate with others?
That's different. I'm not imposing my will on anyone by writing to people on this site, nor are they imposing their will on me.

>Congradulations, sweetie!
Thanks!

>What have you learned about adulthood?
Well, I'm starting to realize that doing work doesn't suck as much as I used to think it did. I'm starting to understand how my parents became the people they are, and how experiences like living alone in an unfamiliar place for the first time can shape people. And the full meaning of actions being permanent and immutuable, but nothing ever lasting forever. And that life gets easier to handle as you get used to it.
No. 95965
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95965
>>95964
>That's different. I'm not imposing my will on anyone by writing to people on this site, nor are they imposing their will on me.

I know you may not agree with me, but I feel it's just a matter of degree. Social power involves the ability to grant or take away something that someone else finds valuable. I find conversation valuable, for example, and you have had the power to grant or take that away from me. I don't know how well you know me, but if you were familar with how I responded you could cause me to respond in a particular way.

But in online social interaction, you're right that you could seldom really impose your will in any meaningful way. If you tried to push for more power than another wanted to give you, they'd probably just stop listening and that would be the end of it.

>Well, I'm starting to realize that doing work doesn't suck as much as I used to think it did.
I agree. Work has seldom been something I disliked in my life.

>I'm starting to understand how my parents became the people they are, and how experiences like living alone in an unfamiliar place for the first time can shape people.
I'm sure you're learning a lot of new things. :)

>And the full meaning of actions being permanent and immutuable, but nothing ever lasting forever.
Yes, I think that's mostly true. :)

>And that life gets easier to handle as you get used to it.
Yes, I think with experience people get better at handling problems, and so things that were once big problems become mundane. Of course, there's always a new problem, too, but sometimes it's good to look back at how far you've come. :)
No. 95966
>>95956
>The problem is, most parents don't seem to do that, at least not all the time. My parents tried to sometimes, but for the most part, it usually came down to "because I'm the parent", and it seems like a pretty universal thing from what I've seen of other families. A lot of people just don't bother because they assume their kids wouldn't understand or care anyway.

Yeah, that's unfortunate. I think possibly with everyone having such busy, fast paced lives, kids often get the "fast food" not just literally but in terms of responses to perfectly good questions. Because the parent is in a hurry to do something or go somewhere and doesn't feel like explaining.

>Why does everybody think kids are dumber than they really are? And why do they think that it's necessary or beneficial to withhold so much information from them? Kids can't know what sex is or what curse words are, because these things are "adult"?

It is rather bizarre. I don't know if there's scientific basis behind it, but I tend to think for most of us adults the brain dumbs down more and more from the moment we quit school, so kids are really the most intelligent.
It'd be preferable for kids to know about sex imo, so they know a little more about what predators would get up to and we could avoid the silly vague "did he touch you in a private place" stuff and communicate the issue clearly. Though we did get a sex ed lesson at around age 10, so I suppose that's fairly progressive - it might depend on country etc.

>Isn't the very fact that it's as abusable as it is something very wrong with the system, though?
Any system is abusable, don't you think? Is there such a thing as a completely fair system that no one will ever abuse in some way for their own benefit?

>Why does being born into a society make one obligated to be a part of it and contribute to it? At the very least, you should be able to opt out of the system if you want to. But you can't do that then, because that makes you dirty non-taxpaying unproductive NEET scum in pretty much every country.
It's because by being born into the society you're immediately benefiting from other people's efforts. I actually think it's fair - even if we were still nethanderals huddled in a little cave, if one guy is expected to do all the work, hunting food, skinning animals for clothing, etc while some of the others are just sat there with their feet up expecting to be fed, I think they'd probably end up kicked out of the cave.

How feasible really do you think it'd be to opt out of society completely? Meaning you no longer benefit from its existence and so have no obligation to do your part in its upkeep. Certainly you could forget ponies (product of capitalism) and the internet as those are society's things that people are working to keep going, so you'd have no right to access them. But also no housing, you'll have to find a cave. No supermarkets, hope you're good at hunting. If you get sick, no doctors or hospitals to come to your rescue - you opted out. People only lived until their 30s or so in those days, so you wouldn't be enjoying a particularly lengthy life either.

Yes, working for 40-50 years of your life, sucks. All the more reason I suppose to try and find a job that doesn't suck. But everyone else is in the same boat - we all have to do it because otherwise we wouldn't be enjoying houses, cars, hospitals, computers, etc. Someone has to do it. And what right do we have to say "well I don't want to work, someone else can do it", isn't that then us abusing the system, letting everyone else do everything for us?

>Everybody has to dress right and fit in and work and follow social norms.
There's an obligation to dress in certain ways, but I don't think anyone is being forced to fit in and follow social norms. It's just that obviously if someone does something different from what people expect, then people express that they weren't expecting it in different ways, some of them less friendly.

>If you're a guy, you work out, cut your hair and shave your beard.
I know quite a few bearded guys who might disagree ;P
No working out here either!

>If you're a girl, you wear makeup, shave your legs, and starve yourself to maintain a thin figure. Otherwise, you're ostracized.
I also know a lot of "chunkier" girls, and not to imply any causation but I notice they're often the nicest. No issue with it here!

>And god forbid you decide it's warm out and you don't need to wear clothes, because we've decided we have to be the only species that is offended at the sight of our own naked bodies.
Yeah that's too bad. At least we can get away with just underwear, kinda. Unfortunately, walking down the street with your tackle swinging around is a quick route to a cell. Though if there was an "opt out" system and you didn't set foot on "society's property" and were just naked in your own cave, maybe people wouldn't fuss so much!

>Does all of this really make sense to most people? Or do most people agree that it's bullshit but swallow it anyway, either because they assume no one else agrees with them or because they don't know what to do about it?

I think in the main it makes sense, because we live longer, healthier lives by working together as a society than by just all going it alone, and naturally if a group of pretty much any pack/social animal has only one or two doing all the work, they'll find it unfair and nudge the others in the group to help out, or just leave them behind. So it does make sense in my eyes, and we wouldn't be sat here on our computers, typing out words of English, if that society didn't exist, hadn't raised us, etc.
It does have its problems - the heavily ingrained necessity to wear clothing is one of many, but I think in general we do ok.
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